<html>
<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>meeting-2019-03-07 · t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/index.html">t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html">meeting-2019-03-07</a></h3>

<hr>

<base href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com">

<head><link href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/style.css" rel="stylesheet"></head>

<a name="160211126"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211126" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211126">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>Meeting today in a few minutes <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="810">@WG-unsafe-code-guidelines</span></p>
<p>## Agenda Nominations</p>



<a name="160211202"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211202">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li><a href="#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang.2Fwg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/lang.20team.20sync.20draft" title="#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang.2Fwg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/lang.20team.20sync.20draft">Lang Team Sync Draft</a></li>
</ul>



<a name="160211218"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211218" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211218">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Feel free to add your own :)</p>



<a name="160211264"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211264" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211264">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Overall status of current discussion area</li>
</ul>



<a name="160211273"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211273" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211273">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>We should land the book PR even if it doesn't upload to travis properly yet</li>
<li>we might want to land the array stuff</li>
</ul>



<a name="160211279"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160211279" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160211279">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:11)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Github pages status</li>
</ul>



<a name="160212329"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212329" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212329">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>hi there! sorry I'm late (and then Zulip had connection issues)</p>



<a name="160212345"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212345" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212345">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:19)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Layout of Arrays</li>
</ul>



<a name="160212630"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212630" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212630">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>hello?</p>



<a name="160212648"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212648" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212648">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi =)</p>



<a name="160212670"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212670" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212670">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, ;let's do it -- <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126854">@avadacatavra</span> you around?</p>



<a name="160212706"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212706" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212706">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:23)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li><a href="#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang.2Fwg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/lang.20team.20sync.20draft" title="#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang.2Fwg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/lang.20team.20sync.20draft">Lang Team Sync Draft</a></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>ok, to start here, I am still trying to organize this idea of a "lang team sync meeting" -- and in general to broadcast more to the outside world what we've been up to</p>



<a name="160212712"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212712" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212712">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I posted a draft write-up summarizing where we are, what's happened so far</p>



<a name="160212725"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212725" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212725">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd love feedback</p>



<a name="160212785"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212785" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212785">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>It's missing in particular some concept of the current discussion area because -- frankly -- I've not been able to follow along =(</p>



<a name="160212787"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212787" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212787">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm afraid I didn't yet have time to read it, sorry</p>



<a name="160212793"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212793" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212793">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, that's fine, do you think you will have time?</p>



<a name="160212800"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212800" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212800">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>It's not super long :)</p>



<a name="160212815"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212815" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212815">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>If not, that's ok too, but good to know :)</p>



<a name="160212825"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212825" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212825">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>after I finish writing my thesis proposal, I guess</p>



<a name="160212852"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212852" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212852">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>or maybe on the weekend when I dont feel like working^^</p>



<a name="160212888"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212888" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212888">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>When do you anticipate finishing up your thesis proposal, if you have an estimate?</p>



<a name="160212896"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212896" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212896">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not thining now so much of that document as about the idea of a sync in general</p>



<a name="160212954"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212954" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212954">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>(i.e., should I just expect you're too busy to participate, which would probably be fine)</p>



<a name="160212957"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212957" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212957">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I hope to get it done next week, I've been pushing it ahead way too long</p>



<a name="160212966"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212966" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212966">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, I agree you should prioritize that :)</p>



<a name="160212974"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212974" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212974">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, that's all I had to say on that topic I guess</p>



<a name="160212985"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212985" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212985">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>but it's not like I'll be less busy afterwards^^ I'll likely have a paper and a talk to write until the end of the month...</p>



<a name="160212987"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160212987" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160212987">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:26)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>Overall status of current discussion area</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>Maybe a few quick notes on this? It would help me in finishing up the write-up, if nothing else</p>



<a name="160213135"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213135" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213135">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>hm yeah. basically the boring stuff is boring as expected -- the composed types, like enums structs, arrays and so on (<span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132920">@gnzlbg</span> volunteered to do a writeup for them)</p>



<a name="160213157"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213157" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213157">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>and then for integers and references we basically have pretty much every possible opinion represented</p>



<a name="160213166"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213166" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213166">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>lol ok</p>



<a name="160213173"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213173" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213173">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh and then unions^^</p>



<a name="160213195"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213195" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213195">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess the question is whether we can get away from the opinions to maybe principles or tests we can use to discriminate between them</p>



<a name="160213197"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213197" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213197">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>these are the three big open questions</p>



<a name="160213219"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213219" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213219">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>"tests"?</p>



<a name="160213221"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213221" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213221">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>but ok so -- integers, references, and unions are the big "open questions"</p>



<a name="160213242"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213242" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213242">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:29)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>"tests"?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I mean .. not like "test cases" .. but like "decision criteria"</p>



<a name="160213277"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213277" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213277">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm imagining things like "doing X is a common pattern in C FFI and we want to preserve those" etc</p>



<a name="160213286"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213286" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213286">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>it might be interesting to try and tease out the values people are using to back their positions</p>



<a name="160213335"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213335" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213335">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>so we can try to judge based on those</p>



<a name="160213354"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213354" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213354">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>partly just thinking out loud</p>



<a name="160213355"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213355" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213355">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>there are some I guess, though not at all like that</p>



<a name="160213379"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213379" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213379">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess an obvious next step, put another way, is try to summarize current thread thus far</p>



<a name="160213386"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213386" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213386">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>points of agreement / disagreement etc</p>



<a name="160213391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213391">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="127859">@Taylor Cramer</span> wants all the layout optimizations, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> wants the strongest possible invariant, and I want an implementation in Miri.</p>



<a name="160213396"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213396" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213396">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I might be game to do some of that, just to help me catch up</p>



<a name="160213411"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213411" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213411">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="127859">Taylor Cramer</span> wants all the layout optimizations, <span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> wants the strongest possible invariant, and I want an implementation in Miri.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>perfect :)</p>



<a name="160213449"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213449" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213449">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:31)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I guess an obvious next step, put another way, is try to summarize current thread thus far</p>
</blockquote>
<p>this is something where, if we were going to have a public sync, we could put this as a "please help, we need this"</p>



<a name="160213463"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213463" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213463">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>I’m still not convinced about what to do with integers validity wise (in either direction)</p>



<a name="160213486"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213486" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213486">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>some of the integer and reference decisions are intertwined</p>



<a name="160213494"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213494" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213494">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>Both paths seem to require large trade offs</p>



<a name="160213549"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213549" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213549">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I'm adding the <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span> emoji to my own comment, not to make it look like the world agrees with me, but to help me find it later when preparing a summary of the meeting :)</p>



<a name="160213584"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213584" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213584">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah I was about to say, most people (I think) agree we want to keep <code>&amp;mut [u8]</code> to uninitialized data non-UB (which can be achieved in several ways), but <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132920">@gnzlbg</span> doesn't agree</p>



<a name="160213624"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213624" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213624">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>are we able to write-up partial summaries, and to isolate areas of disagreemnt into new issues?</p>



<a name="160213650"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213650" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213650">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>or are the questions too...atomic to permit that</p>



<a name="160213654"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213654" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213654">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>not sure how new issues would help</p>



<a name="160213665"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213665" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213665">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>we kind of already have one issue for all of these 3 open questions</p>



<a name="160213690"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213690" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213690">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>and the integer and reference thing is somewhat connected, I dont think splitting more will help</p>



<a name="160213698"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213698" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213698">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok, it's not that I think "new issues" will help, it's that I'm trying to understand if there are like N details and people agree on most of them, but for 1 or 2 that it would be helpful to isolate</p>



<a name="160213752"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213752" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213752">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>sounds like no</p>



<a name="160213764"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213764" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213764">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>(namely, we could allow <code>&amp;mut [u8]</code> to uninitialized data either by allowing uninitialized integers, or by making references non-recursive wrt. validity)</p>



<a name="160213806"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213806" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213806">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>ok, it's not that I think "new issues" will help, it's that I'm trying to understand if there are like N details and people agree on most of them, but for 1 or 2 that it would be helpful to isolate</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yeah I don't think so. this is all one big connected mess.</p>



<a name="160213821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213821">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>FWIW it's not that i disagree with that, but that I think that this trade-offs convenience with teachability, and i'm not convinced that's the right tradeoff</p>



<a name="160213827"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213827" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213827">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>and it has spider arms that connect to things like <code>ptr::freeze</code></p>



<a name="160213850"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213850" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213850">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>Arguments for both sides have been given by pretty much everyone that commented, and I have the feeling a lot of people changed their minds after the all hands</p>



<a name="160213867"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213867" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213867">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>but i failed to understand what made them change their minds</p>



<a name="160213924"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213924" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213924">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>so maybe a summary comment explaining that would help</p>



<a name="160213932"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213932" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213932">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:36)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>FWIW it's not that i disagree with that, but that I think that this trade-offs convenience with teachability, and i'm not convinced that's the right tradeoff</p>
</blockquote>
<p>what I meant to say is that you don't agree with allowing it.</p>



<a name="160213947"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213947" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213947">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>it sounds to me like there has been a lot of conversation and the participants have a good understanding of the "map"</p>



<a name="160213951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213951">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:36)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Arguments for both sides have been given by pretty much everyone that commented, and I have the feeling a lot of people changed their minds after the all hands</p>
</blockquote>
<p>really?</p>



<a name="160213961"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213961" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213961">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>and so it would be good to try and write it out</p>



<a name="160213998"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160213998" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160213998">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:37)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>Arguments for both sides have been given by pretty much everyone that commented, and I have the feeling a lot of people changed their minds after the all hands</p>
</blockquote>
<p>really?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>IIRC you were arguing in favor of invalid only within unions before</p>



<a name="160214022"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214022" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214022">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>FWIW, unions are probably closest to an agreement, but that's also the most isolated discussion</p>



<a name="160214075"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214075" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214075">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:37)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>you were arguing in favor of invalid only within unions before</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ah right</p>



<a name="160214086"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214086" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214086">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>Sounds like we could have one summary of the union position, and one summary of ints/references?</p>



<a name="160214099"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214099" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214099">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah I think I've just seen too much code in the wild that has invalid integers</p>



<a name="160214188"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214188" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214188">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>(all the <code>Read::read</code> stuff, and then the tricks that <code>AtomicCell</code> is playing)</p>



<a name="160214192"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214192" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214192">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>let's move on from this maybe? I think meeting will end soon</p>



<a name="160214198"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214198" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214198">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>Like <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> I think the issue with validity is that the issues are intertwined, and also might interact with layout optimizations, so maybe a holistic summary about what issues are there and how they interact might be better than summarizing each of the things, except for unions, structs, etc. where things are clearer</p>



<a name="160214215"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214215" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214215">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>Github pages status</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>I can try to follow up with this <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132920">@gnzlbg</span> =)</p>



<a name="160214224"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214224" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214224">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>the union stuff interacts with layout</p>



<a name="160214230"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214230" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214230">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>but int/ref doesn't</p>



<a name="160214237"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214237" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214237">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Like <span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120791">RalfJ</span> I think the issue with validity is that the issues are intertwined, and also might interact with layout optimizations, so maybe a holistic summary about what issues are there and how they interact might be better than summarizing each of the things, except for unions, structs, etc. where things are clearer</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ok this is one of the questions I wanted to get at</p>



<a name="160214245"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214245" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214245">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>whether we can separate or not</p>



<a name="160214247"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214247" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214247">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>must be like the only thing it doesnt interact with :P</p>



<a name="160214253"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214253" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214253">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would then like to reframe the discussion from</p>



<a name="160214262"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214262" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214262">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>arguing for alternatives</p>



<a name="160214285"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214285" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214285">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>to <em>producing a well-structued summary of the intertwined considerations</em></p>



<a name="160214307"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214307" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214307">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>and then we can get back to arguing :)</p>



<a name="160214312"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214312" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214312">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>that's <em>hard</em> though</p>



<a name="160214368"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214368" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214368">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>might be a good idea to add it as a PR, and incrementally grow it, and then post it in the active discussion</p>



<a name="160214373"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214373" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214373">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>exactly...</p>



<a name="160214396"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214396" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214396">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>let's try to collect each argument only once</p>



<a name="160214404"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214404" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214404">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>right, I'm imagining taking an initial stab in a PR or Dropbox paper, and then having some collaboration on elaborating it</p>



<a name="160214503"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214503" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214503">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>paper might even be better here, that's easier to edit collaboratively</p>



<a name="160214533"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214533" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214533">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it's less about arguments and more about "here are all sorts of things that depend on this decision"</p>



<a name="160214593"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214593" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214593">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes I know</p>



<a name="160214603"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214603" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214603">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was actually going to say that</p>



<a name="160214615"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214615" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214615">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>i'm bringing in a bit of framing from other lang-team debates, where it can be more argumentative, but I don't think that's the problem here</p>



<a name="160214624"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214624" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214624">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I still think that times like these are a great point to step back</p>



<a name="160214633"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214633" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214633">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>for ref/int, I imagine sections like "optimizing away functions that take <code>&amp;!</code>", "initializing a buffer with <code>Read::read</code>", "<code>AtomicCell</code>", ...</p>



<a name="160214637"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214637" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214637">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>and collaborate on trying to figure out how to express the "solution space" so that others can understand it</p>



<a name="160214662"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214662" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214662">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>if nothing else, it will help us tremendously when we revisit these questions years from now, after having made a decision, and want to udnerstand why :)</p>



<a name="160214679"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214679" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214679">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>it helps that I haven't been participating so I can see how much shared context you + <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132920">@gnzlbg</span> have right now :)</p>



<a name="160214685"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214685" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214685">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>you are very optimistic assuming we'll have made a decision a year from now :P</p>



<a name="160214689"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214689" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214689">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., I have no idea what the heck you are talking about ;)</p>



<a name="160214715"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214715" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214715">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>we should narrow the litmust test into "definetely want to support", and "decision X would allow supporting Y"<br>
many of the arguments are of the later form, but discussion diverges because it is not clear whether Y is worth supporting</p>



<a name="160214834"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214834" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214834">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think there's too many implications. I'd rather structure it by listing a bunch of pattern and then describing what allowing this pattern implies for int/refs.</p>



<a name="160214886"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214886" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214886">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>is the idea to just focus on int/refs first ?</p>



<a name="160214913"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214913" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214913">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>well they are one area</p>



<a name="160214930"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214930" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214930">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>that would be fine by me</p>



<a name="160214931"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214931" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214931">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think for unions we can write our normal summary + documenting the disagreement or whatever we called it</p>



<a name="160214934"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214934" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214934">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>and the rest isnt controversial</p>



<a name="160214947"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214947" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214947">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>so are there other items in the list for the meeting ?</p>



<a name="160214959"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160214959" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160214959">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>we had a few other things</p>



<a name="160215047"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215047" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215047">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:46)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>Github pages status</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>I will pursue this </p>
<p>and </p>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>Layout of arrays</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>not sure what <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> had in mind here</p>



<a name="160215061"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215061" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215061">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>well we have a PR, I think it's ready for merging</p>



<a name="160215250"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215250" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215250">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>i think it might be a good idea if ubsan and niko also at least give it a read</p>



<a name="160215365"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215365" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215365">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>sure, whatever</p>



<a name="160215376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215376">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway I got to go, ttyl!</p>



<a name="160215397"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215397" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215397">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:48)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>i think it might be a good idea if ubsan and niko also at least give it a read</p>
</blockquote>
<p>happy to do so -- if there anything controversial? (cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125253">@Nicole Mazzuca</span>)</p>



<a name="160215942"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160215942" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160215942">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>there shouldn't be, but more eyes never hurt</p>



<a name="160216119"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160216119" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nicole Mazzuca <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160216119">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can read it later today</p>



<a name="160216200"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160216200" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> gnzlbg <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160216200">(Mar 07 2019 at 16:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>awesome, thank you both</p>



<a name="160581633"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07/near/160581633" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/136281-t-lang/wg-unsafe-code-guidelines/topic/meeting-2019-03-07.html#160581633">(Mar 12 2019 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/unsafe-code-guidelines-meetings/8335/9?u=nikomatsakis" target="_blank" title="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/unsafe-code-guidelines-meetings/8335/9?u=nikomatsakis">Minutes posted</a> -- I realize we've not been doing this so well. =)</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
</html>